M3CSL vs. NSX-R who would win?

tool fan · Sep 2, 2004

I couldn't resist....I have been watching this thread for a few days and MAN....some of the words and hostilities that come out of these Honda VS. BMW threads are crazy. I love brahtw8's ride and have said so on many occasions. I can see hostilities when you are comparing BMW to American cars, but Hondas have a time tested and quality history. Hondas are not Shit cars like Hyundai or Kia. I don't own a Honda simply because I could afford a Bimmer. If I couldn't afford a Bimmer I am sure I would go BACK to Honda or maybe even Infinity. Performance....who the F^%K cares...no one here is a race car driver and couldn't get the top results out of our cars even if we could go to a closed course. We are talking about a daily get to/ from work drivers here. Who cares if your car could plausibly launch you from green light to mars in 3.4 seconds.....chances are there is traffic in front of you (which would make you and idiot for trying) and or another red light. We are argueing over elements of our automobiles that we as normal drivers will not ever get to test anyway. In the end we are really only talking about tenths of seconds.....who cares. Just enjoy your rides....for that is the reason you bought them.

Sorry I just get tired of the stupid immature name calling that goes on between GROWN ADULTS over whose car is faster....not that big of a deal. JMO

///M SPEED · Sep 2, 2004

brahtw8, I love all your post like I have stated in another post. I find them insightful and thorough. One must remember they are YOUR observations and opinions. One may not agree with the content, however there are civil ways to express this instead of name calling and hatred. It is a shame some cannot look past the brand (BMW/HONDA/etc..) they own and find the quality traits other auto manufactures produce. This is a forum, a place to discuss your interests and passions. There should be no reason one cannot convey these feelings like grown adults (people above the age of 18 should have no reason understanding this).

Brahtw8, I love NSX's. I would love to own an NSX-R, however given the choice between the NSX-R and the CSL I may have to choose the CSL. The main reason for this is pretty petty; I love the look of the CSL more. Love your post so please keep them coming. Don't let any close minded person (pointing finger at bimmerman11) keep you from sharing your opinions and overall knowledge here. You're (one of) da man.......

brahtw8 · Sep 2, 2004

Unfortunately for those of us in the states, this discussion is purely academic, as we don't get the M3 CSL or the NSX-R.

I should mention the 2005 E46 M3 will be available with a new Club Sport package that should make it the best-handling M3 ever, other than the CSL. The package includes 19" forged alloys (I assume these are the carryover style, but ICBW), stiffer suspension, a more direct steering ratio and a new M-track mode for the DSC. Brakes are now 13.6" up front instead of 12.8" and are compound and cross-drilled rotors. It also has some Alcantara on the wheel and handbrake, and is available with an aluminum trim package and a new color, Interlagos Blue.

The package should be available on 12/04 and later build 05 M3s, and costs $4k. It is available with SMG, and I don't know if that price includes SMG, but I seriously doubt it, given the wheels are at least half of that price.

I do appreciate all of the kind words. Now I just have to try to live up to them . . .

brahtw8 · Sep 2, 2004

Hey ///MSpeed, how about some pics of that Topaz M3? I don't think I have seen a Topaz M3, just LSB and Mystic Blue.

It is taking all of the self control I have not to take my TL and trade it in for a 2001 M3. Needless to say, that would be a very foolish decision come winter, but it sure seems like a fun choice right now.

Next year I will finally have an M in the garage, albeit probably a 17 year old one. I can't wait to post pics of my 12 year old Honda and my 17 year old Bimmer sitting in garage while my 1 year old Honda sits outside . . .

///M SPEED · Sep 2, 2004

brahtw8, I haven't had time to take pics yet. I have been very busy since I bought it. I do have some, but the pics don't do it justice. I will clean her up and take some nice ones. The Topaz blue is beautiful. I really wanted a LSB, but found this one and loved it as well. This car is unbelievable. What a rush it is. SMG is a bit different to get use to, but once you do it is fun as hell to drive. I do, sometimes, miss the clutch pedal and racing through the gears.

Are you going to get an M next year for sure? What ever you do, DO NOT sell the NSX. That would be a shame. I wish my wife would let me purchase another sports car, because I would love to have one. There is a red one down the street from me for sell, however I haven't seen it lately, that I would love to have (looks a lot like my avatar). You still have your bimmer? I thought you sold it some time ago.

WOW, A new CSP (Club Sport Package) on the new M3? I will have to check this out. Maybe I will have to upgrade? Maybe not, because I love the 01-04 models. With that package this will probably push the “05” M's into current M5 category (price wise). That's a steep number. Maybe I can just wait and let someone else pay for the slight depreciation and pick one up [}:)]

. Yea right!......

brahtw8 · Sep 2, 2004

I will probably get an E28 M5 next summer, as a 3rd car.

The NSX is the weekend/track car, the TL is the daily driver/winter car. If I lived in warmer climes, it would not be a TL, great as the TL is in its own value-laden right.

The M5 would represent a nice weather daily driver or just another car for my 'collection'. Possibly an M6, E36 M3, 850, etc. I really want them all, and hundreds more, but the E28 M5 has been a 20 year obsession, since I first saw an M535i (218hp), an M635csi (286hp) and wondered why they couldn't put the S38 in the E28. They did shortly thereafter, but it had nothing to do with an eight-year-old's fantasy.

The NSX isn't going anywhere for a while.

It may become a street-legal 550 rwhp monster courtesy of factor x motorsports in a few years, or a 2300 pound racecar with a full cage and no interior.

///M SPEED · Sep 2, 2004

Wow, a 550 rwhp factor x motorsports or racecar with no interior. That is some kind of a change. It would fun to drive though.

I have always loved the M635csi. Very nice looking cars. One can never go wrong getting an older M of any type. I too, would love to have E28 M5. Hell even an older E30 M3 would be nice. I would love to have them all as well. How about the older CSL? That would be a fun car to drive.

I feel ya, WI winters are pretty harsh and having to drive in that weather is bad enough without having to worry about traction. The weather here in the NW gets bad sometimes and it really isn't my driving in this weather that worries me. It is the other non-competent winter drivers that do. It's amazing what some people think they can do on ice.

How often do you take the NSX out to the track? You must be able to get some quality time with it. Sure would be cool to see it "at speed" on a closed circuit.

tool fan · Sep 2, 2004

You guys need to read the new Popular Mechanics...it is ALL about cars and the future cars....There is a prototype of a car that can theoetically go 350 mph....don't flame me....flame Popular Mechanics. Go to the store and see for your selves.

Pink_Floyd · Sep 4, 2004

bimmerman11 said:

Dude, you got owned, shut the hell up. For christs sake just look at what you typed! It is people like you who give BMW drivers bad names as snobs and assholes. And seriously man, educate yourself about BMWs. You said 850il which makes me want to smack you. Also, the 8-series was never a performance car. The 850csi was a result of a failed M8 attempt by them M division. The Motorsport people were going to build an M8, and they did build one, but it didn't perform well. They decided to cancel the project because they believed that an M car should not be a huge heavy V12 monster. The true spirit of the M car is in that of the original e30 M3 and the CSL.

I certainly agree that the NSX is a great car but I really don't think BMW has any car to compare with it. The M3 CSL is the best performing car but it has the body of a normal M3 which is really not a sports looking car. It's hard to describe, but BMW doesnt really make anything like the NSX, 911, 360, etc., its just a different type of car... Who really cares who will win? Does anyone here own either of these cars?

frolf · Sep 4, 2004

brahtw8 said:

i am right there with you in terms of obsession. the e28 in general is a really erally really sweet car. I would really like to get a 535is and then get rid of the diving boards on the front. i'm not sure if i could handle the m5 just because of how expensive it is to maintain.

but even the old 520's are cool looking cars

MrElussive · Sep 5, 2004

tool fan said:

I couldn't resist....I have been watching this thread for a few days and MAN....some of the words and hostilities that come out of these Honda VS. BMW threads are crazy. I love brahtw8's ride and have said so on many occasions. I can see hostilities when you are comparing BMW to American cars, but Hondas have a time tested and quality history. Hondas are not Shit cars like Hyundai or Kia. I don't own a Honda simply because I could afford a Bimmer. If I couldn't afford a Bimmer I am sure I would go BACK to Honda or maybe even Infinity. Performance....who the F^%K cares...no one here is a race car driver and couldn't get the top results out of our cars even if we could go to a closed course. We are talking about a daily get to/ from work drivers here. Who cares if your car could plausibly launch you from green light to mars in 3.4 seconds.....chances are there is traffic in front of you (which would make you and idiot for trying) and or another red light. We are argueing over elements of our automobiles that we as normal drivers will not ever get to test anyway. In the end we are really only talking about tenths of seconds.....who cares. Just enjoy your rides....for that is the reason you bought them.

Sorry I just get tired of the stupid immature name calling that goes on between GROWN ADULTS over whose car is faster....not that big of a deal. JMO

Dude, I redline my car multiple times a day. I merge on and off highways like freaking speed racer, I take turns pretty fast normally, and I love to accelerate hard and practice high-rpm shifting, and I enjoy the strong brakes. Now based on all this, I want even more performance on whatever my next car may be. The thing about performance is that you constantly want more and more.....

Chesty Bonds · Sep 5, 2004

Hey brahtw8 how will you manage to get an E28 M5? I have been told that they are near-impossible to find and, even if you do, the costs of running it are horrendous... This still hasn't stopped me from lusting after them, of course.

If you can't find an E28 M5, perhaps check out the E28 Alpina B6. I drove one a while back and i must say it was stupendously quick. And the engine note! The only gripe i had with it was that it had a dog-leg 1st to 2nd gearchange which i think is strange in a BMW. Still, they are defninitely worth consideration. This thing was an absolute beast just waiting to be hammered and the feedback through the brakes and steering on an 20yo car was a lesson in history. These cars just speak to you constantly when you drive them in the manner that the engineers originally intended.

The other positive for the Alpina is its rarity value and the fact that nobody will know what it is.

PhatBimmer · Sep 5, 2004

Yes I agree on this Honda vs. BMW debate heating up. IMO Hondas (never liked, nor will ever) and I understand the reasoning for that guy going crazy is because he didn't know how to counter Brahts intellingent post, simple caveman reaction. But like an old saying goes "Don't argue with a fool, someone watching may not be able to tell the difference". Hondas will always be Hondas and BMW's will always be BMW's and as long as everyones happy with there cars I think theres no reason for anyone to go crazy over things like this, but definately Honda and BMW not a good mix IMO but many of you say Braht is a huge BMW fan and since I'm relatively new to even say anything about me knowing or even understanding braths reasoning to going from BMW to Honda I just simply keep my mouth shut in most occasions. But really I just wanted info, braht presented it to me and thats all this post was meant for. [wave]

brahtw8 · Sep 6, 2004

Chesty Bonds said:

E28 M5s are around, you just have to look nationwide. I came close to buying a gorgeous, 72k mile example locally a few years back, but decided to hold off for the NSX the following summer.

BTW, I don't believe we got the dog-leg box in the US E28 M5s, by which I assume you mean 1st is where you would expect 2nd to be. The US cars are a bit different (detuned) than the euro counterparts, and I believe the dog-leg/non-dog-leg distinction is true for the E24 M6, so I would expect it would be true for the E28 M5. And having driven a couple of US E28 M5s, 1st gear is exactly where it 'should' be.

At any given time, there are between 10-15 E28 M5s for sale in the USA. We got 1235 or so, far more than Australia. You just have to search autotrader, ebay, roundel, etc. I get email alerts when a new one shows up, and I have been watching the E28 M5 market for a good five years now.

As long as the M5 has been maintained, it should be relatively economical to run. I have good local independent mechanics that are relatively inexpensive and know the old M-cars well. It won't be driven more than 5-7k a year, so I should be able to get away with around $1200 a year in maintenance.

An Alpina would be great, but virtually impossible to find in this country, and extremely expensive to maintain, as most of the Alpina-specific parts are out of production and hella-expensive, if you can find them at all.

brahtw8 · Sep 6, 2004

///M SPEED said:

I love the old E9 CSL. I have the airborne CSL poster framed in my living room.

Some day perhaps, but the old CSL race cars still cost $50-60k. There is one for sale in the autoweek classifieds right now.

I have only done 3 track days in the NSX since I got it last May. I wanted to do a lot more this summer, but things just didn't work out in terms of schedule and whatnot. I will be up at Road America for Octoberfast with the Badger Bimmers at the end of the month, for 2 more days. Next year I hope to do at least 5-7 track days, at RA, Gingerman and Blackhawk.

I have a few pics of the NSX at RA, but they are not in digital form. If you go to nsxprime you should be able to find a lot of video of other NSXs at speed . . .

Chesty Bonds · Sep 6, 2004

brahtw8 said:

Yeah thanks for the heads-up. The E28 M5 has always been the object of my desire. The problem for me is that i'm living in the wrong country and its virtually impossible to find this version of the M5. Perhaps some day.

Do let us know if you find that 'perfect' example - i'd love to hear about the experience.

Cheers

brahtw8 · Sep 6, 2004

Here are today's latest:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2489028299&sspagename=ADME:B:SS:US:1

Roundel Classifieds has this jem:

1988 M5 WBSDC9303J2791941 Black/natur, 69k original miles, excellent everywhere,
no paintwork, no cosmetic issues. Everything works, needs nothing mechanically,
photos and history available. $18,000. Art Johnson: 610 383-9575;
ahj@sas.upenn.edu. (PA)

**

I have no connection to the sellers and cannot vouch for the cars.

Chesty Bonds · Sep 6, 2004

Yeah i did some research and, in fact, there were only about 2000 E28 M5s sold worldwide so i guess you guys in America have been pretty lucky.

One thing i cannot understand is why the US regulations enforced those horrible bumper-bars to be used. I guess its a 'safety' thing but really those regs. certainly ruin the aesthetics of a great car.

brahtw8 · Sep 6, 2004

Chesty Bonds said:

If its any consolation, they also ruined most of the rest of the other 70s and 80s BMWs with the DOT-spec bumpers, so the E28 M5 looks very nice in comparison.

Chesty Bonds · Sep 6, 2004

You're quite right mate, but a travesty nonetheless!

I thought the E21 looked the most ridiculous with the 'DOT-spec' bumpers. Shame